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Thread: TPG: Week 24- Calvin Camp

  1. StevenForbes Guest

    TPG: Week 24- Calvin Camp

    Welcome back to The Proving Grounds. I hope you all have a wonderful and safe holiday weekend. Remember, alcohol and large bodies of water do not mix! I want to see you all here, safe and sound, when it's all over!

    Now, before you all head out to your various celebrations of our national freedom, there's a bit of business to attend to. We have to see what Calvin Camp has brought us this week. Let's see how he does.

    The Murdering God - Excerpt
    8 pages

    Page 1
    Four panels. The first should be short, but full width across the top. The second should also be full width and taking up most of the page, with panels 3 and 4 below.
    PANEL 1
    Wide shot, from street level. It's night. The moon-like orb of the gas giant hangs huge (and I do mean huge, this should not be mistaken for a normal moon) in the sky. In the distance, behind the buildings, we can see hints of the masts and smokestacks of ships at the wharf.

    Tucked in between shabby warehouses of timber and stone is an even shabbier one-story building, filling in a space that was once an alley. The one-story building is built of rough wood planks, board & batten style, with a metal roof. One door and two windows open directly out onto the gravel street, there is no sidewalk. One of the two windows is covered by a sheet of tin, and has a bent metal stovepipe poking through it. The remaining window is cracked and grimy. Crudely painted on the wall above the one functional window and door are the words, "LARS BAR". A kerosene lantern, hanging near the entrance, lights up the building.

    PANEL 2
    Inside the bar, looking toward the front entrance. The room is long and narrow. The construction is crude. The sidewalls are unfinished stone. The end wall, by the street, is exposed wood framing with the planks of the exterior siding visible from within. Wood rafters and the underside of the tin roof can be seen above. Kerosene lanterns, hanging from the rafters, light the room. We can see a coal stove with the flue stuck through the covered-up opening that was once a window, and the remaining window and door beside it. There's no real floor, just a layer of wood shavings thrown over hard-packed gravel.

    A bartop, fashioned from a couple of planks laid across a row of old barrels, runs along one side with a similar makeshift counter behind. Old packing crates are fastened to the wall behind the bar, holding bottles and jugs of liquor. A couple of tapped wooden kegs rest on the back counter, with stacks of ceramic mugs and shot glasses. A row of mismatched stools front the bar (make sure there are some empty stools at the bar - at least two empty ones need to be together) and similarly mismatched tables and chairs are scattered throughout the room. The place is busy, but not overly crowded. The patrons are rough, working class men, mostly dockworkers. Several female prostitutes are working the room. Many of the people here are nonhuman - Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes.

    The bartender (Lars) is a jovial-looking NordUlfr Troll. He's late middle-aged, a little over 7' tall and muscular, but filling out more than a bit around the middle. He has shaggy, gray hair, balding in the front.

    One of the prostitutes is a Posoti Gnome woman, mature but fairly attractive - more so than one would expect in this low of a dive. She's wearing a trashy but colorful dress with a profusion of gaudy costume jewelry, and high-heeled boots to give her some extra height. She has curly hair and freckles. She's about four and a half feet tall, with a heart-shaped face and large eyes.
    A stocky human man in an old navy jacket and watch cap (Dag) is just coming through the door. Some of the customers are looking up to see who the new arrival is.(Again, Calvin? Really? I’ve already shown you that I can cut this down to 100 words or less. You’re not getting paid per word, and you’re not getting paid per page. You’re getting paid per number of pages of script, not number of pages the script takes up. The less you write, the faster you write, the more you’re able to write, the more you’re able to earn. The artist is going to pick out what’s important, and then draw the rest from their instincts. This is overkill that no one wants to read. There is very little reason for this, despite what you may think. There’s no reason why two panel descriptions flow onto a second page, especially when a word hasn’t been said as yet.)

    PANEL 3
    Dag is taking a stool at the bar. Make sure there's another empty one next to him, on his right. He's grinning up at the bartender, having just dropped a bulging coin purse on the bar, his hand still extended near it. The bartender is giving the purse a speculative look as he sets a mug of dark beer down beside it.

    Bartender:
    Looks like you're flush tonight, Dag.

    Dag:
    Sure am. Just made a big sale, and I'm ready to celebrate.

    PANEL 4
    The Posoti prostitute has hopped up on the adjacent stool and is smiling coyly at Dag. He is giving her an appreciative glance as he takes a swallow of his beer. Beyond them, the bartender (Lars) is un-corking a rum bottle. (All of that for this? An overly detailed page of panel descriptions, only to end on a panel that will make me put the book back on the shelf. Nice work. What is it about this panel that makes someone want to turn the page? What’s so interesting about it? What’s semi-interesting about it? I’ll tell you: nothing.)

    Posoti:
    Buy a girl a drink?

    Page 2
    Six panels. I'm seeing the first three panels as dominating the page, with panels 4, 5 and 6 in a short, single row across the bottom

    PANEL 1
    The bartender is standing in front of Dag and the prostitute, filling a shot-glass from the rum bottle. Dag is glancing at Lars, while gesturing toward the woman and smiling.

    Dag:
    Why not?

    Dag:
    One for my new friend, too.

    PANEL 2
    Dag is turned sideways on his stool, giving his companion an openly appraising look as he raises his shot glass toward his lips. The Posoti is turned toward Dag, posing provocatively. One of her hands is resting on the bar, toying with her own full shot glass. Lars has left to serve other customers.

    Dag:
    You're a little bit of a thing.

    Dag:
    I ain't never had a Gnome before.

    PANEL 3
    Close up on the Posoti woman, grinning wickedly as she raises her own shot.

    Posoti:
    'Bought time then, ain't it? (‘Bout, not ‘bought.)

    PANELS 4, 5 & 6
    Various shots of Dag and the Posoti getting drunk and friendly at the bar. If possible, try and make it seem like Dag is getting a lot more drunk than the woman is. (Again, there’s nothing interesting happening here. What's the reasoning behind three pages of showing a guy drinking?This could have been done in one simple panel, and still gotten across the effect you're looking for: Dag and the woman are sitting at the bar. Dag has a large pyramid of overturned shot glasses in front of him, and the woman has a much smaller one in front of her. See that? Simple, direct, and to the point. Otherwise, there are very few different ways to show two people getting drunk, but having one less so than the other. Not in a single panel, without the use of a caption.)


    Page 3
    Five panels. Panels 4 and 5 should be larger than the others.

    PANEL 1
    Dag and the Posoti are leaving the bar. Dag is obviously three sheets to the wind as the Posoti helps him stagger toward the door.

    PANEL 2
    We're outside now, still night, but have left Lar's Bar behind. We're down by the docks now, where warehouses line the waterfront and piers stretch out into the sea, lined with steamships. The Posoti is pulling Dag by the hand while she's half-dancing along the wharf beside the warehouses. The only light now is from the gas-giant, there are no streetlights. (No. How are you going to show someone to be “half dancing” in a still image, especially as they’re pulling someone along? Know what it is? Say it with me: moving panel. This reminds me of one of the scripts submitted here, where they’re out in the desert looking at a crater. The writer had a character waving the smoky air with a flashlight in her hand. It sounded immensely strange in the script, and looked even stranger when the art came in.)

    PANEL 3
    The Posoti is now pulling Dag into an alley, her expression eager and promising wonderful things.

    PANEL 4
    Inside the alley. The Posoti is effortlessly shoving Dag up against the wall with one hand. Her other hand is held out to one side, her fingers held like claws. Her eyes are glowing. Dag looks startled and confused. (You’re not going to be able to show this to full effect. The chick’s back is going to be to us, for the most part, because Dag is up against the wall. There are few angles that will allow you to do this at all, let alone get in glowing eyes, clawed fingers, and a confused mark. Maybe if her head is turned toward the camera, but that’s not going to be something usually done. And the ‘effortless’ part? Not really seeing that, either.)

    Dag:
    Hey! What the...

    PANEL 5
    Extreme close-up on Dag. He now looks terrified. His face is bathed in harsh light from directly in front of, and somewhat below, him. (Finally, three pages to be generically interesting. I doubt that you’ve captured anyone’s interest by now. Being generic and predictable with the action/inciting incident is preferable to being boring, granted, but not by much.)

    Dag (last word screaming, breaking out of the balloon):
    What are you... No!

    Page 4
    Three panels. Panel 2 should dominate the page. I could even see it as a splash with insets.

    PANEL 1
    Close up on the Posoti. Her expression is wild, hungry. Her eyes are glowing with crackling energy. Her hands are raised in claws, energy crackling around those too.

    Posoti:
    Yesss!

    PANEL 2
    A low view, looking up at the Posoti, as she is standing over Dag with her hands spread. Her legs are braced apart, her head thrown back, her body arched as if in pleasure, her eyes still glowing. Dag is sprawled on the ground, his body twisted with convulsions, his face a mask of agony and terror. Crackling tendrils of energy are crawling all over his body, and arcing from his eyes and chest through the air to the Posoti's hands. To get across the direction of movement, I figure some tendrils could have reached her and be coiling around her hands, while others are still reaching toward her. (I’m not interested. It was better when it was left at the end of P3. This is just needlessly drawing things out. Hopefully, this has meaning. Otherwise, it’s padding.)

    Dag (screaming):
    Eeaarrgghh!

    PANEL 3
    Ground-level view. Close up on Dag, lying on the ground, his cheek in the dirt. His eyes are now just burned out sockets. The skin of his body seems shriveled and dried out. His shirt is burned away over his chest, and there is only a blackened hole where his heart should be. We can see the high-heeled boots of the Posoti stepping over his body as she leaves. (Yup. Padding. You did in four pages what could have been done in two. Two, maybe three panels of the bar scene, then a panel of her leading him out. Then a panel of her beckoning him into a dark alley. That’s P1. P2 is him being attacked and killed, with the killing happening off panel. That gives you one more page to attempt to be interesting, and pull a reader into the story, as well as another page of story that’s now freed up. Compression, compression, compression. I know the rage is decompression, but you have to compress the boring bits. This is a boring bit, even though it acts as your inciting incident.)

    Posoti (off panel, sort of - I want the tail of the balloon cut off by the top of the panel, not just a tailless balloon):
    Mmm... yummy. (No. Anything but this. This line right here turns your story into your last name. That’s not what you want.)

    Page 5
    This page should have a borderless panel in the middle with 4 inset panels wrapping around the edges and the middle open to show the figure. The borders of the insets should be wavy, doubled, maybe the panels are tilted, non-rectangular - something that gets across the idea of visions in a dream.
    The viewpoint for the middle-area should be from the ceiling, looking down on Talia. The viewpoint for the insets should be low, on an eye-level with Little Talia (who I'll get to in a minute).

    MIDDLE-AREA
    Talia is in bed, wearing a nightshirt, her hair loose and mussed. Her expression is frightened. Her body is twisted, writhing in the throes of a nightmare. The blankets are tangled. The general lighting is dim, a room in daylight with the curtains drawn closed, a narrow shaft of light falling across the bed. The window itself shouldn't be visible. All we should see is Talia on the bed with no additional details, the linework just trailing off into the white space between insets. The bedroom doesn't exist for her right now.

    INSET 1
    We're inside a one-room apartment in a poor tenement building. I don't care what time of day you want to make it. We are currently looking toward a door that is being blown to splinters by crackling energy (similar to what the Posoti was using on the last page). Beyond the door we should see the figure of an Inquisitor in uniform. The energy is coming from him. He's a tall, imposing figure with harsh, hawk-like features.

    An Elven woman (Talia's mother) is standing in the middle of the room, looking toward the door in surprise, bracing for the attack. She bears a close resemblance to Talia, but her TehnJien-style clothing makes her look more foreign.

    A little Elven girl, maybe five or six years old, clutching a rag doll, is running away from the exploding door toward the camera. The little girl is Talia as a child - try and make this as clear as possible - give her the same hair style, the same night shirt (smaller of course), same facial structure as much as the age difference permits, etc. The doll will be another clue to connect them, but do as much as you can with the actual resemblance.

    If you show a window in the room, it will reveal nothing but the wall of another building across a narrow alley. There is no modern kitchen or indoor plumbing. There should be a coal-fired combination cooking/heating stove and a counter with a basin and bucket for water. An icebox (antique refrigerator, not a camping cooler), a small table, a couple of chairs, and a bed (the bed shouldn't be visible in this panel, because that's where Little Talia is headed), some oil lamps or lanterns - not much else. They haven't lived here long so there shouldn't be much in the way of decorative touches. Not all of this needs to be in one panel, just use this stuff as background for all the panels in this scene. (And here I was, thinking that insets were supposed to be smallish panels. If you need this much description for a smallish panel, there’s something wrong. You’re not going to be able to get the bulk of this in here. I’d say, nothing past the first paragraph, because you want to pull the camera in close to the door for best dramatic effect. That means everything past the first paragraph is wasted effort. Good job.)

    INSET 2
    The Inquisitor is coming through the doorway, energy crackling around his hands. The woman looks frightened but we can now see energy gathering at her hands too.

    Woman:
    Why do you do this?
    We are not bad people. We do no harm to anyone.

    INSET 3
    Close-up on the Inquisitor, looking stern and determined.

    Inquisitor:
    You still broke the law.

    INSET 4
    Close-up on the woman. She looks more angry than frightened now and a ball of energy crackles around one raised fist.

    Woman:
    I will not let you take her!
    (More cliche. Yup. This continues to bore.)

    I’m going to stop right there.

    From a reader’s pov, this is a boring yet fast read. Let’s break it down.

    Just like the previous script, you’re hamstringing your artist with the level of detail you’re putting in. To be honest, after a while, I just stopped reading. That’s horrible of me, I know, but it’s really a turn-off, especially when I can already tell that the information isn’t important. If I didn’t read it, the artist isn’t going to read most of it, either—especially if you’re working with the same artist who grows used to your scripts. When that becomes the case, what’s the use in putting all this detail in for? It’s not a novel, and you’re slowing it down, just like one. Not good.

    Your dialogue is very sparse over five pages. Fast read. Serviceable, could use something of a polish, but a fast read. Kind of like these notes.

    Here’s what you’ve done: for a first issue, you’ve made everyone put the book down, because there’s nothing for them to hook their imaginations into over the first few pages. Now, historically, the second issue is severely low-ordered, because readers pick up the first issue of a new series to see if they like it. If this is a second issue, those that picked up the first and didn’t like it won’t miss anything, and those that are on the fence aren’t going to pick up this issue because you succeeded in turning them off with boring cliché.

    Being boring is the worst thing of all. The first couple of page-turns were lackluster at best, and the third was cliché, then there was the page of padding, and then we get to Talia where I just skimmed again. I understand the fact that you said in your e-mail that you may end up drawing it yourself, but if you’re going to write AND draw it, you’re not doing yourself any favors with the overly wordy nature of this script. Think of it this way: if a writer can submit a script to an artist that is half as lengthy in descriptions and still get good results, how confident are you in your own abilities that you’re writing a novel of description for yourself? I’m willing to bet that, after a while, even you are going to skim over your own descriptions, which is going to be more horrible than me skimming it as an editor, because you should want to read what you wrote. It gets deep when you bore yourself.

    I feel like a broken record for having to say it, and you should all be tired of hearing me say it: boring is death. If you don’t grab the reader within the first three pages, you’re not going to grab them at all. What, you think they’re going to give you their hard earned money just because you made a funny-book? If you think that, then think again. And again, if you come up with the same conclusion. Until you make a name for yourself, you don't have the luxury of a slow burn. You haven't gained anyone's trust as yet, so they're not going to stick around to see if it gets interesting. Grant Morrison can do a slow burn, because readers know he's going to turn something on its ear before the issue is done, and their brains will probably leak from their toes. You don't have that luxury. Hell, this isn't even warm, let alone smoldering for a slow burn.

    What was interesting about the first few pages? Nothing. Hopefully, the guy’s death is some sort of catalyst for something. Showing his death? Not my idea of a good time, but only because it’s better to let the reader’s imagination work than to take out all the mystery by showing it. Think of the better horror movies: they’re better because they leave things to the imagination, not because of the different ways they can do murder and mayhem. Same thing here. Leave something for the imagination.

    But like I said, the first scene could have been easily compressed into two pages, allowing you a faster start to the story. Have you done an outline for any of this? There are reasons there are homework in a lot of the B&N articles. An outline will help you to see where you're at with the pacing of the story. If you wrote an outline, and started off with four pages of this, there's something wrong. Not with the outline, but with you, because you saw it and thought it was acceptable. "I think I'm going to start out with four pages to bore the pants off my readers. That'll insure they'll never pick up another story by me. I'll show them!" If you had outlined this and saw the first four pages as being this, you should have either cut it down to two pages, or rearranged the issue in order to come up with something more interesting to put in front.

    That’s about it. Be much more interesting, do it faster, and for the love of five-toed socks, cut down on your panel descriptions!


    Next week brings us Adam Hudson, Mark McMurtrey, Joe Webb, and Michael Gerberding. That’s all I have in my box, folks. Four weeks. Get 'em in if you want 'em.

    Now, let’s discuss this.



  2. CalvinCamp Guest

    Well, Steven, you're used to my beat-head-on-wall learning methods by now, so I'll just dive in without explanation or justification. Ignore what you please, but there are a couple questions, especially regarding setting apart descriptive elements, where answers would be really helpful. If you could take a stab at those, I'd appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    (Again, Calvin? Really? I’ve already shown you that I can cut this down to 100 words or less. You’re not getting paid per word, and you’re not getting paid per page. You’re getting paid per number of pages of script, not number of pages the script takes up. The less you write, the faster you write, the more you’re able to write, the more you’re able to earn. The artist is going to pick out what’s important, and then draw the rest from their instincts. This is overkill that no one wants to read. There is very little reason for this, despite what you may think. There’s no reason why two panel descriptions flow onto a second page, especially when a word hasn’t been said as yet.)
    Yes. Again. I did warn you when I sent this that it was written in the same style as the last submission (written before that one, in fact) and explained why I chose not to change it. I have to admit that the main reason was pure laziness - it was already written and I just didn't feel like re-writing the whole thing to try and be more concise. For that I apologize.

    Another thing that may be a factor here, though, is that this description is establishing an entire scene. The description is providing information, not just for that single panel, but also for all the following panels that take place within this scene (and again, later in the story, for that matter). I loaded a lot of information in there because it's introducing a significant and recurring location. Would it maybe be better to provide a "setting description" separate from the panel descriptions, perhaps even outside the script?

    PANELS 4, 5 & 6
    Various shots of Dag and the Posoti getting drunk and friendly at the bar. If possible, try and make it seem like Dag is getting a lot more drunk than the woman is.
    (Again, there’s nothing interesting happening here. What's the reasoning behind three pages of showing a guy drinking? This could have been done in one simple panel, and still gotten across the effect you're looking for: Dag and the woman are sitting at the bar. Dag has a large pyramid of overturned shot glasses in front of him, and the woman has a much smaller one in front of her. See that? Simple, direct, and to the point. Otherwise, there are very few different ways to show two people getting drunk, but having one less so than the other. Not in a single panel, without the use of a caption.)
    When did I call for three pages of him drinking? That says three panels up there. And it's only the second page. By the beginning of the third page he's leaving. And I certainly didn't try to show two people getting drunk in one panel - that was your idea. Which I suppose would do the job, but... meh. There's also such a thing as too compressed.

    PANEL 2
    We're outside now, still night, but have left Lar's Bar behind. We're down by the docks now, where warehouses line the waterfront and piers stretch out into the sea, lined with steamships. The Posoti is pulling Dag by the hand while she's half-dancing along the wharf beside the warehouses. The only light now is from the gas-giant, there are no streetlights.(No. How are you going to show someone to be “half dancing” in a still image, especially as they’re pulling someone along? Know what it is? Say it with me: moving panel. This reminds me of one of the scripts submitted here, where they’re out in the desert looking at a crater. The writer had a character waving the smoky air with a flashlight in her hand. It sounded immensely strange in the script, and looked even stranger when the art came in.)
    Sigh. We're never going to agree on this stuff, are we? As far as I'm concerned, it's a movement that can be frozen, so it's not a moving panel. It's as simple as that.

    Just because you can't visualize it, doesn't mean it can't be drawn. Waving smoke away... yeah, that's hard to show, because it's not enough movement and appears meaningless when frozen. But this isn't like that at all. If I said she was walking and pulling him along, you wouldn't have said a word about a moving panel (at least I would hope not). "Half-dancing" just describes the way she's walking - she's not just strolling, she's being playful, dancing along as she walks. I can show "dancing" in a static image just as easily as I can show "walking", and I'm confident I can also show her performing a half-assed combination of the two.

    Now, would an artist other than me need an explanation of what I meant by half-dancing? Maybe. But that's a different problem from a moving panel.

    PANEL 4
    Inside the alley. The Posoti is effortlessly shoving Dag up against the wall with one hand. Her other hand is held out to one side, her fingers held like claws. Her eyes are glowing. Dag looks startled and confused. (You’re not going to be able to show this to full effect. The chick’s back is going to be to us, for the most part, because Dag is up against the wall. There are few angles that will allow you to do this at all, let alone get in glowing eyes, clawed fingers, and a confused mark. Maybe if her head is turned toward the camera, but that’s not going to be something usually done. And the ‘effortless’ part? Not really seeing that, either.)
    It'll work fine as a simple side view. I can show startled and confused well enough in profile. I can show glowing eyes and clawed fingers easily in profile. Effortless isn't going to be that hard either, since there's going to be a tiny slip of a girl pinning a guy, who has a foot & half and at least hundred pounds on her, to the wall with one hand - just a lack of visible strain in her body and expression should carry it completely.

    PANEL 2
    A low view, looking up at the Posoti, as she is standing over Dag with her hands spread. Her legs are braced apart, her head thrown back, her body arched as if in pleasure, her eyes still glowing. Dag is sprawled on the ground, his body twisted with convulsions, his face a mask of agony and terror. Crackling tendrils of energy are crawling all over his body, and arcing from his eyes and chest through the air to the Posoti's hands. To get across the direction of movement, I figure some tendrils could have reached her and be coiling around her hands, while others are still reaching toward her.(I’m not interested. It was better when it was left at the end of P3. This is just needlessly drawing things out. Hopefully, this has meaning. Otherwise, it’s padding.)
    We've discussed this project enough that you did realize this story was about a murder, right? I could dance around it at this stage, but it's going to come up eventually. I figured, we're supposed to start with a bang, the story is about murder, so start with the murder. But I guess that's boring. Shrug.

    Hmm... that brings up a thought. Maybe I should just skip the drinking and actually start with the murder. If a guy is dying on page one, will that get people to turn the page? Or just disappoint them when it's back to slower moving build-up on page 2?

    PANEL 3
    Ground-level view. Close up on Dag, lying on the ground, his cheek in the dirt. His eyes are now just burned out sockets. The skin of his body seems shriveled and dried out. His shirt is burned away over his chest, and there is only a blackened hole where his heart should be. We can see the high-heeled boots of the Posoti stepping over his body as she leaves. (Yup. Padding.
    Are you saying that this panel is padding too? Or that just the last panel was padding, and made redundant by this one? Because, if it's the second one, I can sort of see your point (though I'll have to think about whether I agree with it). If it's the former, it doesn't make any sense at all.

    Posoti (off panel, sort of - I want the tail of the balloon cut off by the top of the panel, not just a tailless balloon):
    Mmm... yummy. (No. Anything but this. This line right here turns your story into your last name. That’s not what you want.)
    How do you know what I want?

    Some people actually happen to like camp. And I'm one of them. I'm not trying to write grim, unrelenting horror, here - nothing appeals to me less than sort of thing. You read my last script. This is supposed to be a continuation of the same setting, main character, and tone. And campy humor is intended to be a part of that tone. The last thing I want to do is write a story about an emotionally damaged, super powered, witch hunter tracking down a self-proclaimed god who eats people... and treat it seriously.

    If you don't like campy, that's fine. If I fail to successfully pull off campy, then that's fine too (if unfortunate). But a certain level of campy is what I'm going for.

    (And here I was, thinking that insets were supposed to be smallish panels. If you need this much description for a smallish panel, there’s something wrong. You’re not going to be able to get the bulk of this in here. I’d say, nothing past the first paragraph, because you want to pull the camera in close to the door for best dramatic effect. That means everything past the first paragraph is wasted effort. Good job.)
    If you'd done more than skim this section, you might have realized that the insets are intended to dominate the page, and wrap the figure in the center, with the center scene bleeding off into the rest of the page behind the insets. Insets may not have been the best term, but I couldn't think of any better - and I tried my best to make my intentions clear.

    Also, this once again sets up, not a single panel, but the overall scene for two pages of panels. Not everything in the description is intended to be in one panel, and that was specifically stated. Again, maybe a setting or scene description, separate from the panel descriptions, would work better?

    The description itself may need some work though, because the door should definitely not be the focus. There's no drama in a door. As for the stuff going on outside the door, that's the least important element, and the first place that things should be cut if necessary. The little girl is the primary focus for this panel, with her mother a close second. The door getting blasted open is (at this point) only there to explain why the girl is frightened and running. The Inquisitor beyond the door could be left out completely, until the next panel, if something had to go. Heck, if it came down to it, a line of dialogue from the mother, telling her daughter to hide, and an off-panel SFX would work almost as well as the exploding door.

    I mean, I like explosions as much as anybody, but wasn't it you (alongside Lee) who fought tooth and nail to convince me that the story isn't about explosions, it's about people? So why would you ignore the people and focus on the door?

    What was interesting about the first few pages? Nothing. Hopefully, the guy’s death is some sort of catalyst for something. Showing his death? Not my idea of a good time, but only because it’s better to let the reader’s imagination work than to take out all the mystery by showing it. Think of the better horror movies: they’re better because they leave things to the imagination, not because of the different ways they can do murder and mayhem. Same thing here. Leave something for the imagination.
    I hear this all the time. And I still think, from my perspective as a consumer, that it's a bunch of crap. It's a valid approach, but not an essential, or even necessarily preferable, one. To me, the good horror movies (and my list may be completely different than yours) are good because they build up the suspense (slowly) before things happen, not because they refrain from showing what happens - which most don't anymore, and haven't in a very long time.

    Sometimes it makes sense to beat around the bush. Sometimes it doesn't. If I wanted you wondering what the Posoti did to Dag, you wouldn't know. If I wanted you to know exactly what she did to him... well, you've got a pretty good idea, don't you?

    As for being a catalyst... yeah, his murder (and it's method) is pretty much the catalyst for everything that hits the fan.

    Being boring is the worst thing of all.
    Not based on what you told me last time. At this stage, I'll happily take "boring story" over "no story at all". Especially considering how subjective "boring" can be.

    I do think you're right about the compression. It could definitely be shorter than it is, and would be better for it. I'll be working on that. And yes, I did do an outline, but only a very general one. I didn't break it down page-by-page, because I wasn't concerned with controlling the page count. I hadn't really thought, at the time, about what other benefits a tight outline might have.

    So... yeah. I'll take the "boring" report as a solid sign of progress. The description and moving panel complaints I expected. We're somewhat in agreement on pacing. Overall... I'm very happy with the outcome on this one.

    Thanks!



  3. StevenForbes Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Yes. Again. I did warn you when I sent this that it was written in the same style as the last submission (written before that one, in fact) and explained why I chose not to change it. I have to admit that the main reason was pure laziness - it was already written and I just didn't feel like re-writing the whole thing to try and be more concise. For that I apologize.
    Apology accepted.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Another thing that may be a factor here, though, is that this description is establishing an entire scene. The description is providing information, not just for that single panel, but also for all the following panels that take place within this scene (and again, later in the story, for that matter). I loaded a lot of information in there because it's introducing a significant and recurring location. Would it maybe be better to provide a "setting description" separate from the panel descriptions, perhaps even outside the script?
    It definitely would help. Setting the scene is important, but really, that's what establishing panels are for. If you do a proper establishing shot, you wouldn't have to worry about the rest. You don't need to be overly wordy to do a proper establishing panel. We've already gone over that. I suggest giving it a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    When did I call for three pages of him drinking? That says three panels up there. And it's only the second page. By the beginning of the third page he's leaving. And I certainly didn't try to show two people getting drunk in one panel - that was your idea. Which I suppose would do the job, but... meh. There's also such a thing as too compressed.
    There is a such thing as too compressed, but that's when it's done incorrectly. You're right, it's three panels, which is what I meant to say. No matter which way you slice it, it's still boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Sigh. We're never going to agree on this stuff, are we? As far as I'm concerned, it's a movement that can be frozen, so it's not a moving panel. It's as simple as that.

    Just because you can't visualize it, doesn't mean it can't be drawn. Waving smoke away... yeah, that's hard to show, because it's not enough movement and appears meaningless when frozen. But this isn't like that at all. If I said she was walking and pulling him along, you wouldn't have said a word about a moving panel (at least I would hope not). "Half-dancing" just describes the way she's walking - she's not just strolling, she's being playful, dancing along as she walks. I can show "dancing" in a static image just as easily as I can show "walking", and I'm confident I can also show her performing a half-assed combination of the two.

    Now, would an artist other than me need an explanation of what I meant by half-dancing? Maybe. But that's a different problem from a moving panel.
    If it were that simple, we still wouldn't be doing this dance. Your description makes it a moving panel, despite your belief. Having it drawn will make it either look weird, like the art I spoke about earlier, or it will look like she's fully dancing or walking. It's not going to come across as half-assed. It's like being a little pregnant.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    It'll work fine as a simple side view. I can show startled and confused well enough in profile. I can show glowing eyes and clawed fingers easily in profile. Effortless isn't going to be that hard either, since there's going to be a tiny slip of a girl pinning a guy, who has a foot & half and at least hundred pounds on her, to the wall with one hand - just a lack of visible strain in her body and expression should carry it completely.
    Fine. Good luck with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    We've discussed this project enough that you did realize this story was about a murder, right? I could dance around it at this stage, but it's going to come up eventually. I figured, we're supposed to start with a bang, the story is about murder, so start with the murder. But I guess that's boring. Shrug.
    You didn't start out with a murder. You started out with two pages of padding, then the death, then more padding. Four pages that didn't do much at all. If you wanted to start out with a murder, you should have done it by P2, with a really good page turn on P1. Then, we'd be having a much different conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Hmm... that brings up a thought. Maybe I should just skip the drinking and actually start with the murder. If a guy is dying on page one, will that get people to turn the page? Or just disappoint them when it's back to slower moving build-up on page 2?
    Run with that thought. Grab them, and don't let them go.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Are you saying that this panel is padding too? Or that just the last panel was padding, and made redundant by this one? Because, if it's the second one, I can sort of see your point (though I'll have to think about whether I agree with it). If it's the former, it doesn't make any sense at all.
    No, I'm saying the entire page is padding.

    There's no need to show the killing. Talk about it, talk around it, but leave something for the imagination. You can talk about the gruesomeness of it when the body's found, as it must me.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    How do you know what I want?

    Some people actually happen to like camp. And I'm one of them. I'm not trying to write grim, unrelenting horror, here - nothing appeals to me less than sort of thing. You read my last script. This is supposed to be a continuation of the same setting, main character, and tone. And campy humor is intended to be a part of that tone. The last thing I want to do is write a story about an emotionally damaged, super powered, witch hunter tracking down a self-proclaimed god who eats people... and treat it seriously.

    If you don't like campy, that's fine. If I fail to successfully pull off campy, then that's fine too (if unfortunate). But a certain level of campy is what I'm going for.
    Do you know what you're doing with the camp? Of your two pieces, you've shown an idiot for a mage, and a campy god. The only person, so far, that's being played straight is the hero. Are you saying that the only one that's not an idiot in the entire comic is Talia? Because that's what we've got so far. If you want to do comedy, then there's fault with the entire premise of the story. Murder-mysteries only work as comedies when everyone plays the fool, or the comedy is actually funny. This is neither. Funny murder mysteries: The Private Eyes, Clue, and Murder By Death. If that's not what you're going for, reassess how your characters are being portrayed. Right now, you're not doing yourself any favors.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    If you'd done more than skim this section, you might have realized that the insets are intended to dominate the page, and wrap the figure in the center, with the center scene bleeding off into the rest of the page behind the insets. Insets may not have been the best term, but I couldn't think of any better - and I tried my best to make my intentions clear.
    No, you used the right word. But even still, the central figure is going to be Talia in the middle, which forces the other panels to be smaller. If you simply did a proper establishing shot, I wouldn't need to skim. If there was something in there that was actually interesting and not overburdened with detail that any artist worth their salt would already be putting in, then I wouldn't need to skim. If you put the proper panel descriptions in the proper places, then I wouldn't need to skim. If you were interestingly wordy instead of needlessly so, then I wouldn't need to skim. Anyway, the only way the central panel will be shown to bleed behind the insets would be for the insets to be more inside the main panel, so that the insets are floating inside, instead of just being butted up against the page bleed. Smaller panels accomplish this.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Also, this once again sets up, not a single panel, but the overall scene for two pages of panels. Not everything in the description is intended to be in one panel, and that was specifically stated. Again, maybe a setting or scene description, separate from the panel descriptions, would work better?
    You may be comfortable with the way you write your scripts, and if you're drawing it, that's fine. If you're writing the script for someone else, put what you need in the particular panels. If Talia as a child and her mother need to be in panel 2, put them there. Don't describe them in an overall setting then expect the artist to know where to place them. Describe what you need, when you need it. Do establishing shots. This is basic scriptwriting 101 that I went over in the very first weeks of B&N.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    The description itself may need some work though, because the door should definitely not be the focus. There's no drama in a door. As for the stuff going on outside the door, that's the least important element, and the first place that things should be cut if necessary. The little girl is the primary focus for this panel, with her mother a close second. The door getting blasted open is (at this point) only there to explain why the girl is frightened and running. The Inquisitor beyond the door could be left out completely, until the next panel, if something had to go. Heck, if it came down to it, a line of dialogue from the mother, telling her daughter to hide, and an off-panel SFX would work almost as well as the exploding door.

    I mean, I like explosions as much as anybody, but wasn't it you (alongside Lee) who fought tooth and nail to convince me that the story isn't about explosions, it's about people? So why would you ignore the people and focus on the door?
    I'm not ignoring the people for the door. It's about building drama, and for that panel, the drama is in the exploding door and the figure doing the exploding. This isn't about the action in and of itself--it's about the drama that accompanies the action. The drama that's built because of the action. Use one to counterpoint the other. I didn't say the explosion was the focus of the scene, just that panel. Give your audience something interesting to look at. That exploding door is the only true, non-gratuitous piece of action in these five pages. They read it (hopefully on P3), and they're like BOOM! Something else interesting is going to happen! It's a signal. Use it as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    I hear this all the time. And I still think, from my perspective as a consumer, that it's a bunch of crap. It's a valid approach, but not an essential, or even necessarily preferable, one. To me, the good horror movies (and my list may be completely different than yours) are good because they build up the suspense (slowly) before things happen, not because they refrain from showing what happens - which most don't anymore, and haven't in a very long time.

    Sometimes it makes sense to beat around the bush. Sometimes it doesn't. If I wanted you wondering what the Posoti did to Dag, you wouldn't know. If I wanted you to know exactly what she did to him... well, you've got a pretty good idea, don't you?

    As for being a catalyst... yeah, his murder (and it's method) is pretty much the catalyst for everything that hits the fan.
    That's fine. Disagreements are great. However, if you try to sell this as it is, with a no-burn (because there really isn't one), you're going to get a form letter rejection. You don't have the name to pull this off, and would only gain that name after five years of working for one of the Big Two, and that's minimum. Grant Morrison was always GM, but he didn't gain the trust he has overnight. Even now, he's still hit or miss, but to most, he hits way more than he misses. He has that trust. You don't. You HAVE to come out the gate with something interesting as soon as possible. For your first published project--for your fifth published project--you have to hit the readers square in the eyes as early as possible in order to keep them. If you fail in that, you're going to hear a lot of "it's slow." You have to get them interested. If you don't get them interested, you've already lost. With this script, you've already lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Not based on what you told me last time. At this stage, I'll happily take "boring story" over "no story at all". Especially considering how subjective "boring" can be.
    There's story here, thankfully. It's not just a set of actions with no sense of anything happening afterwards. These first four pages definitely give the sense that something else is going on. It's just that no one's going to care because you took too long to be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    I do think you're right about the compression. It could definitely be shorter than it is, and would be better for it. I'll be working on that. And yes, I did do an outline, but only a very general one. I didn't break it down page-by-page, because I wasn't concerned with controlling the page count. I hadn't really thought, at the time, about what other benefits a tight outline might have.
    I know I'm right about the compression.

    A general outline is good to let you know where you're going, but a page count should be done so this doesn't happen to you. Even when writing this, you should have been thinking "am I taking too long to get to the point?" You should always have that thought in the middle of your mind when you're writing. "Am I taking too long, is this interesting, how many pages is this?" If you keep that in the middle of your head, you shouldn't run into something like being boring in the first four pages of your story.

    And, since you didn't do a page breakdown, you totally missed the entire thrust of that installment of B&N.

    As a writer, you need to always be concerned about everything concerning the script: page count, pacing, dialogue, action, drama, characterization, et cetera. Tall order, sure, but I've never said that writing is easy. If you want to do it well, well enough to sell to a company or to an audience if you self-publish, then you need to keep all of the balls in the air from P1 to P22.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    So... yeah. I'll take the "boring" report as a solid sign of progress. The description and moving panel complaints I expected. We're somewhat in agreement on pacing. Overall... I'm very happy with the outcome on this one.

    Thanks!
    Glad you're happy with it. It's definitely progress.

    Anyone else?



  4. Dungbeetle Guest

    Hmm... I'm starting to doubt the "interestingness" of my first few pages now. Do you accept resubmissions, Steve? I do I have to go to the back of the queue? Haha...

    Again, I'm uber noob at this. I would say though to get the most out of that first page turn, maybe only half-introduce your Gnome hooker in the last panel... maybe cut her head out of shot and have something a bit more ambiguous like a "hello stranger" or something.

    Despite not being the biggest fantasy fan I thought the world building here was good. Felt kind of Discworld-ish. The very fact you've started off with some kind of depravity gets you the worthless Dungbeetle thumbs up... I can't stand bog standard, poorly realized fantasy worlds. You've got your kerosine lamps in there... what sort of era clothes do they wear? Doesn't have to be included in the script but at least in some concept art or something... or you'll end up with a bunch of numpties running around with tunics on and curly boots.



  5. StevenForbes Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungbeetle View Post
    Hmm... I'm starting to doubt the "interestingness" of my first few pages now. Do you accept resubmissions, Steve? I do I have to go to the back of the queue? Haha...

    Again, I'm uber noob at this. I would say though to get the most out of that first page turn, maybe only half-introduce your Gnome hooker in the last panel... maybe cut her head out of shot and have something a bit more ambiguous like a "hello stranger" or something.

    Despite not being the biggest fantasy fan I thought the world building here was good. Felt kind of Discworld-ish. The very fact you've started off with some kind of depravity gets you the worthless Dungbeetle thumbs up... I can't stand bog standard, poorly realized fantasy worlds. You've got your kerosine lamps in there... what sort of era clothes do they wear? Doesn't have to be included in the script but at least in some concept art or something... or you'll end up with a bunch of numpties running around with tunics on and curly boots.
    I sure do accept resubmissions, Joe. I've been doing this for 24 weeks, and you are only the second person to ask to resubmit something. I've already done yours, but I'll gladly redo it if you get it in to me within the next two weeks. If you get it in to me during the week you're supposed to go up...more than likely it won't happen.

    And as a writer, you should have at least a vague idea as to what your character generally wears. Calvin knows exactly what they wear, and added it to the first script. I feel that exacting character descriptions do not belong in the script. It does nothing but bog down the script for everyone. Character designs are for you and the artist to work out before trying to pop them into any setting. Design all the main characters first, design the general look of the world, then start putting it together in the art. You'll be asking for a lot less redrawing that way, and will make your artist much happier, and they may stick around longer.



  6. Dungbeetle Guest

    Thanks Steven... is it alright to send a completely different script? I know the one I sent is slow and I'd rather give you a look at something that I know starts off interesting.

    You're right about over-describing... I'm just paranoid being a british writer that so many things could go wrong with the whole world-making part on the art side of things. I guess that's the same city-to-city in the States though. Everywhere has different fashion, architecture etc.



  7. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    It definitely would help. Setting the scene is important, but really, that's what establishing panels are for. If you do a proper establishing shot, you wouldn't have to worry about the rest. You don't need to be overly wordy to do a proper establishing panel. We've already gone over that. I suggest giving it a try.
    Well... thing is, the wordy descriptions you beat me up for are the establishing panels. And I know I'm wordier than I need to be, but I still think there's a lot of data there, and that the data itself needs to be. Some of that data references things that won't likely be seen in the first panel (but might be, depending on the shot chosen), and certainly won't be focused on until later panels. But I want to get the whole of the space described up front, so the artist (me or whoever) knows what's coming and what elements there are to pick and choose from as things go forward. Otherwise I'm risking "magically delicious" decor popping up, or so it seems to me. Anyway, that's my reasoning, and why I'm wondering if providing a "scene description" up front, and then going into the panel-by-panel, would work better.

    There is a such thing as too compressed, but that's when it's done incorrectly. You're right, it's three panels, which is what I meant to say. No matter which way you slice it, it's still boring.
    I'll give you having someone getting drunk at the start of the story being boring. But if I'm going to do that at all, then trying to do it in one panel is too much compression.

    If it were that simple, we still wouldn't be doing this dance. Your description makes it a moving panel, despite your belief. Having it drawn will make it either look weird, like the art I spoke about earlier, or it will look like she's fully dancing or walking. It's not going to come across as half-assed. It's like being a little pregnant.
    >Shrug< So it'll look like she's "fully" dancing while pulling him along, whatever. If I find out it can't be done, I'll let you know so you can tell me you told me so. Till that happens, I'm standing my ground that it's not a moving panel. And, fair warning, if I draw it and it works... I'm posting it here.

    You didn't start out with a murder. You started out with two pages of padding, then the death, then more padding. Four pages that didn't do much at all. If you wanted to start out with a murder, you should have done it by P2, with a really good page turn on P1. Then, we'd be having a much different conversation.
    I told you I didn't disagree with the pacing. But it sounded like you were telling me the events themselves are boring.

    No, I'm saying the entire page is padding.

    There's no need to show the killing. Talk about it, talk around it, but leave something for the imagination. You can talk about the gruesomeness of it when the body's found, as it must me.
    So you're saying this would be better if you didn't know Dag died at this point at all? If you were left at the end of page 3, with him merely pinned against a wall and frightened, then went straight into Talia's scene, that would be more satisfying for you?

    Do you know what you're doing with the camp?
    It is very likely I don't know what I'm doing with any of this.

    Of your two pieces, you've shown an idiot for a mage, and a campy god. The only person, so far, that's being played straight is the hero. Are you saying that the only one that's not an idiot in the entire comic is Talia?
    No. Talia can be an idiot in her own way, too. But she is supposed to be the straight man.

    Because that's what we've got so far. If you want to do comedy, then there's fault with the entire premise of the story. Murder-mysteries only work as comedies when everyone plays the fool, or the comedy is actually funny. This is neither. Funny murder mysteries: The Private Eyes, Clue, and Murder By Death. If that's not what you're going for, reassess how your characters are being portrayed. Right now, you're not doing yourself any favors.
    That's not what I'm going for, because I'm not writing a comedy. Comedy and camp are not synonyms. Camp embraces humor, but it's not outright "everyone plays the fool" comedy.

    Think of some of the more light-hearted episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel. Think of the Mummy movies. Horror, joke, death, funny shit happens, laugh at the villian, more horror, another joke. That sort of tone is my target.

    Also worth mentioning, is that this isn't a murder mystery. A murder mystery is just how it starts. The mystery is solved within the first 25 pages (less if I tighten the pacing) and there's still quite a way to go after that.

    No, you used the right word. But even still, the central figure is going to be Talia in the middle, which forces the other panels to be smaller.
    It doesn't force anything to be smaller. Look, let's make this as simple as possible... Take a six panel grid, 2 across & 3 high. Put a panel in each far corner, and leave the center empty. Now stretch the corner panels downward into the center at the outside corners, making them larger and forming an oval clear space in the middle of the page. Put Talia lying on the bed in the middle. The corner panels that are left are not tiny little panels, and they'll fit what I called for.

    If you simply did a proper establishing shot, I wouldn't need to skim.
    Proper establishing shot? How is that not one? It shows the location, the people, and the beginning of the event. A close-up of an exploding door sure as heck isn't an establishing shot. I could leave out the explosion, and just show the location and people, but what's the point of doing the explosion in an extra panel, if I can be done in one.

    If there was something in there that was actually interesting and not overburdened with detail that any artist worth their salt would already be putting in, then I wouldn't need to skim.
    I have to disagree with you here. Any artist worth their salt is not necessarily going to realize that (for example) the income level of these people means they have oil lamps, an icebox and a coal stove rather than electric lights, a refrigerator and gas range (all of which are appropriate to the period), unless I tell them. I'm establishing highly specific fantasy and period settings here, and varying economic levels within the period - I can't just assume the artist knows as much about it as I do. Not if I want something halfway accurate to what I'm looking for.

    Sure, writing strictly for myself I could ignore all that. Writing for someone else in a modern, real-world setting, I could ignore all that. Writing for someone else (which was what I wanted to attempt), in this setting, there's no way in hell I can leave it all up to an artist who may be completely unfamiliar with the time period I'm basing the setting on - even giving him all the "useless" information I have, he'd have some research to do, but at least I'd have pointed him in the right direction.

    You may be comfortable with the way you write your scripts, and if you're drawing it, that's fine. If you're writing the script for someone else, put what you need in the particular panels. If Talia as a child and her mother need to be in panel 2, put them there. Don't describe them in an overall setting then expect the artist to know where to place them. Describe what you need, when you need it. Do establishing shots. This is basic scriptwriting 101 that I went over in the very first weeks of B&N.
    Wow. You really didn't read it, did you? I have no idea where you got that idea from, but I didn't describe Talia and her mother in an overall setting. I described them in the panel, where they're supposed to appear as the focus of the panel. (And everywhere I wanted them to appear in later panels, I called for them to appear there too) They just happen to appear in a room, so I also described the room. That is the establishing shot.

    This is why I like the idea of a separate "room or scene description" to clarify things. Then I could describe the room as a whole without worrying about what is or isn't visible in a given panel, and then just address the characters, and whatever background elements I specifically want, in the panels as they come.

    I'm not ignoring the people for the door. It's about building drama, and for that panel, the drama is in the exploding door and the figure doing the exploding. This isn't about the action in and of itself--it's about the drama that accompanies the action. The drama that's built because of the action. Use one to counterpoint the other. I didn't say the explosion was the focus of the scene, just that panel. Give your audience something interesting to look at. That exploding door is the only true, non-gratuitous piece of action in these five pages. They read it (hopefully on P3), and they're like BOOM! Something else interesting is going to happen! It's a signal. Use it as such.
    That exploding door is the only thing that could be pulled from the scene and have almost no effect whatsoever. It doesn't really matter how the Inquisitor gets in the room - what matters is what effect he has on the people who live there.

    Let's get back to establishing shots. The establishing shot should set up the location where things are going to take place, right? You're telling me to use a close-up on an exploding door as my establishing shot. That sounds right to you?

    I'm sorry. I've said I'm all for blowing shit up... but if I've got to have an explosion (or it's equivalent) as the basis of every scene in this story, I'd rather not write it at all. A door blowing up is exciting, but two killings and the kidnapping of a child are completely insignificant? Screw that noise.

    There's story here, thankfully. It's not just a set of actions with no sense of anything happening afterwards. These first four pages definitely give the sense that something else is going on. It's just that no one's going to care because you took too long to be interesting.
    Like I said, it's good to at least hear there's story. And we're in agreement on tightening up the pacing.
    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Sunday, July 05, 2009 at 07:36 PM.



  8. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungbeetle View Post
    Despite not being the biggest fantasy fan I thought the world building here was good. Felt kind of Discworld-ish. The very fact you've started off with some kind of depravity gets you the worthless Dungbeetle thumbs up... I can't stand bog standard, poorly realized fantasy worlds.
    As a Pratchett fan, I'll definitely take that as a compliment. Thanks! Now if only I could write a quarter as well as he does.

    You've got your kerosine lamps in there... what sort of era clothes do they wear?
    The setting is pseudo-1930s. But the area where the murder took place is a very poor part of town - never plumbed for gas and no electric there yet. Once we get further in, the tech level steps up a bit.

    Doesn't have to be included in the script but at least in some concept art or something... or you'll end up with a bunch of numpties running around with tunics on and curly boots.
    Yep. It's covered. No curly boots.
    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Sunday, July 05, 2009 at 12:27 AM.



  9. CalvinCamp Guest

    No. How are you going to show someone to be “half dancing” in a still image, especially as they’re pulling someone along? Know what it is? Say it with me: moving panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    ...if I draw it and it works... I'm posting it here.
    Okay... I didn't want to spend more than a few minutes on this, at this stage, because the comic is still a far cry from the production stage and I'm still mulling over some ideas about the format - so it's rough as hell and still needs some tweaking (the girl is too tall for starters). But this is pretty much exactly what I was envisioning when I wrote "The Posoti is pulling Dag by the hand while she's half-dancing along...".

    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Wednesday, July 08, 2009 at 05:12 PM.



  10. CalvinCamp Guest

    You’re not going to be able to show this to full effect. The chick’s back is going to be to us, for the most part, because Dag is up against the wall. There are few angles that will allow you to do this at all, let alone get in glowing eyes, clawed fingers, and a confused mark. Maybe if her head is turned toward the camera, but that’s not going to be something usually done. And the ‘effortless’ part? Not really seeing that, either.)
    What the heck. This was bugging me too.

    Dag pinned against the wall. Please note the lack of effort, the glowing eyes, the clawed fingers, and the confused mark.

    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Wednesday, July 08, 2009 at 05:15 PM.



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Fanboy Buzz is home to Comic Book News, Comic Book Reviews, Comic Book Columns, Comic Book Forums and Comic Book Podcast
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