Page 2 of 3
FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 28

Thread: TPG: Week 24- Calvin Camp

  1. MartinBrandt Guest

    I'm sorry I just am not feeling it. Side shots get boring and repetitious. This isn't the 40's and 50's we need to move the camera around a bit.

    In this second panel you just don't get the feeling of it. It's flat. To show her lack of effort, perhaps pin him with but one finger. That would come across more dramatic.



  2. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinBrandt View Post
    I'm sorry I just am not feeling it. Side shots get boring and repetitious. This isn't the 40's and 50's we need to move the camera around a bit.
    Jeeze... nobody cuts me any slack at all around here do they? Guess that's why it's the "Proving Grounds".

    Of course side shots get repetitious. But only if every panel is a side shot. Just like any other shot will be repetitious if it's the only shot used. These two panels aren't the whole comic, though, or even the whole page.

    However, you do still have a point. Since they both occur on the same page, I'll probably end up trying a couple other angles on the first one, to see what works the best - my initial thought was the sideview would help show the forward movement better, but it's just a first stab. At this stage, I mainly wanted to confirm for myself that what I had in mind would work on paper - which I believe it does.

    The second one really can't be anything but a sideview. Any other angle, and all the problems Steven pointed out actually do become problems.

    In this second panel you just don't get the feeling of it. It's flat. To show her lack of effort, perhaps pin him with but one finger. That would come across more dramatic.
    Yeah, it's a little flat. It's also basically a thumbnail, and will certainly need a more careful re-doing. I was just trying to prove the elements I called for can be all be shown using that angle. I didn't want to spend much time on it, because everything is in flux right now and I'm not even sure that panel will get used.

    As for pinning him with one finger... yeah, that might not be a bad idea. It's a little silly, but silly is cool. I'll keep it in mind, if I use the shot.
    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Wednesday, July 08, 2009 at 07:32 PM.



  3. StevenForbes Guest

    I'm here. Just been busy. Everything's been going crazy.

    Okay, first things first.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    Well... thing is, the wordy descriptions you beat me up for are the establishing panels. And I know I'm wordier than I need to be...
    Yup. Here's what we have:

    INSET 1
    We're inside a one-room apartment in a poor tenement building. I don't care what time of day you want to make it. We are currently looking toward a door that is being blown to splinters by crackling energy (similar to what the Posoti was using on the last page). Beyond the door we should see the figure of an Inquisitor in uniform. The energy is coming from him. He's a tall, imposing figure with harsh, hawk-like features.

    For this inset panel, you should have stopped right here. Now, the extraneous information will show up in green. Why should you have stopped here? Because this is the interest of the panel. You could have gotten the rest of this in a different panel, but there is some wiggle room.

    An Elven woman (Talia's mother) is standing in the middle of the room, looking toward the door in surprise, bracing for the attack. She bears a close resemblance to Talia, but her TehnJien-style clothing makes her look more foreign.

    A little Elven girl, maybe five or six years old, clutching a rag doll, is running away from the exploding door toward the camera. The little girl is Talia as a child - try and make this as clear as possible - give her the same hair style, the same night shirt (smaller of course), same facial structure as much as the age difference permits, etc. The doll will be another clue to connect them, but do as much as you can with the actual resemblance. Here is the second place where you should have stopped.

    If you show a window in the room, it will reveal nothing but the wall of another building across a narrow alley. There is no modern kitchen or indoor plumbing. There should be a coal-fired combination cooking/heating stove and a counter with a basin and bucket for water. An icebox (antique refrigerator, not a camping cooler), a small table, a couple of chairs, and a bed (the bed shouldn't be visible in this panel, because that's where Little Talia is headed), some oil lamps or lanterns - not much else. They haven't lived here long so there shouldn't be much in the way of decorative touches. Not all of this needs to be in one panel, just use this stuff as background for all the panels in this scene. See the rest of this? Extraneous information that should not be in this panel description. The very first sentence? Itís not going to come off well at all, but thatís okay. More than likely, it wonít show up in the art.

    Yes, youíre more wordy than you need to be. By droves. Unless you pay well or the artist loves the story, youíre going to have a difficult time keeping an artist thatís not you. Iíve already shown you that you can get what you need in less than 100 words. I can do it again here. For this inset, I can probably do it in less than 25.

    Here is an establishing shot: Panel 1: Outside of a rundown tenement building. Pretty high up, so we can get a sense of the neighborhood around it, which is also run down and poor. I donít care about the time of day.

    Thatís an establishing shot. You should have an establishing shot every time you change scenes, or have some sort of voiceover on the last panel of the scene before you turn the page for the scene change.

    Go pick up a comic. Any comic with high production values. See how many scene changes there are without an establishing shot, or some sort of segue to advise that the scene is changing. What youíre doing here is turning the page, and immediately in another scene. No good.

    Now, youíre trying to shortcut and put everything you can possibly think of up front, and thus, circumnavigate me throwing my hands up in despair by saying ďI put it in there.Ē Youíre trying to give yourself an excuse to have a big block of boring text. Yes, Iím calling you on it. Iím not saying that shortcuts are right or wrong, what Iím trying to tell you is that you simply need to work harder to keep track of your script. Shortcuts arenít going to help you. Youíre not writing this for me, youíre writing this for the creative team. You want this to be as succinct as possible. The more time they spend reading your script, the longer itís going to take them to get the job done. Be succinct, Calvin. Believe me, the level of detail youíre putting in the script isnít important, and most readers arenít going to know the difference. This is a world of magic youíve created. The only rules are the ones you set. So, really, no one knows, or can argue with you, about your world. If you want to have an electric generator in Cimmeria, you can do that.

    Do this, for your next script: if itís important and needs to be in the panel, put it in ALL CAPS. This will draw the artistís attention, telling them that this is important. When you start seeing half the panel description in caps, you should then know that youíve gone overboard. Be succinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    I'll give you having someone getting drunk at the start of the story being boring. But if I'm going to do that at all, then trying to do it in one panel is too much compression.
    If you show someone in a bar, with a bunch of empty shot glasses in front of them, the readers will get the gist that heís drunk. You donít need more than one panel for that. Anything more is a waste. Itís not too much compression. It may be how you feel, and thatís fine. Youíre just wrong. And no, I'm not saying that you can't set up the panel I described, but you don't need more than one to show him drunk. Get to the heart of the story as soon as you can. You can have him set up to be killed in single five-panel page. Learn what to compress and when.


    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    >Shrug< So it'll look like she's "fully" dancing while pulling him along, whatever. If I find out it can't be done, I'll let you know so you can tell me you told me so. Till that happens, I'm standing my ground that it's not a moving panel. And, fair warning, if I draw it and it works... I'm posting it here.
    I'd want you to post it here, no matter what. I donít do I told you soís. They serve no purpose. Iím either right or wrong. But more than likely, Iím right. And looking at the thumbnail you posted, it looks like I was right. That's not a half-dance. I don't know what that is, to be honest. It looks like she's walking, holding her skirt up out of the way, as women were wont to do once upon a time. If that's what you call a 'half dance', and was exactly what you were looking for, then I believe you need to go back to art school.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    So you're saying this would be better if you didn't know Dag died at this point at all? If you were left at the end of page 3, with him merely pinned against a wall and frightened, then went straight into Talia's scene, that would be more satisfying for you?
    Iím saying that if you add a panel to the page where heís put up against the wall, showing the skyline or something, with him yelling off panel, that will tell everyone that heís been killed. That gets the killing out of the way, adds some mystery, and moves the story along. That would be satisfying to my storytelling sensibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    That's not what I'm going for, because I'm not writing a comedy. Comedy and camp are not synonyms. Camp embraces humor, but it's not outright "everyone plays the fool" comedy.

    Think of some of the more light-hearted episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel. Think of the Mummy movies. Horror, joke, death, funny shit happens, laugh at the villian, more horror, another joke. That sort of tone is my target.
    I understand the tone youíre going for. The only thing I can really say is that youíre failing miserably. Your first script had me wanting to punch the wizard in the face for being stupid, and this script just takes me right out of the story left and right. Put plainly, thereís no enjoyment here. No oneís laughing, nor even half-smiling. Being funny on paper is hard. Donít worry, though. Iím not good at it, either. Itís something I have to work on.

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    It doesn't force anything to be smaller. Look, let's make this as simple as possible... Take a six panel grid, 2 across & 3 high. Put a panel in each far corner, and leave the center empty. Now stretch the corner panels downward into the center at the outside corners, making them larger and forming an oval clear space in the middle of the page. Put Talia lying on the bed in the middle. The corner panels that are left are not tiny little panels, and they'll fit what I called for.
    I understand what youíre saying, but when drawn, itís not going to come off well. Your real drama isnít in the dream sequence, itís in the middle panel. Weíre just seeing why sheís having trouble sleeping. Itís backstory. You donít want to overpower your central character on the page with large insets. Smaller insets will get the point across better.

    As for the second thumbnail...it's a sketch, showing what you're going after, but not only is it flat, but the angle is also impossibly wrong. She should be squared off to him, making it all but impossible to see her face. He should also be moved to the right more, and the wall itself isn't where it's supposed to be. You have the wall coming in on the right, instead of going out, or at least being straight. You drew this, showing what you're going after, and I'm telling you that your art is off. This panel doesn't work.



  4. StevenForbes Guest

    Joe: yes, you can send me something totally different, but if you don't send it before your week, I'll skip you and go on to someone else, or just post what you've sent. Let me know what you want to do.



  5. Dungbeetle Guest

    The first sketch works for me, the second one doesn't. YES is gets in everything described, but there's no sense of fear here. If we saw from behind her, we could make out the talons gripping his clothes, you could suggest the glowing through colour, and, in my mind, there's be a scarier effect, as we're only privy to what's happening via his reaction to it. It would also leave it open ended so god knows what's going on with her face at this time, but he's scared either way. I dunno, just a thought.



  6. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    For this inset panel, you should have stopped right here. Now, the extraneous information will show up in green. Why should you have stopped here? Because this is the interest of the panel. You could have gotten the rest of this in a different panel, but there is some wiggle room.
    Okay, I can see giving the exploding door it's own panel. Just not the first panel in the scene.

    She bears a close resemblance to Talia, but her TehnJien-style clothing makes her look more foreign.
    I'll give you the fact that she's Talia's mother should clue the artist in to make her resemble Talia. But without the note about the clothing (and concept art that would have to accompany it) she'd end up dressed like everybody else, and that's out of character.

    The little girl is Talia as a child - try and make this as clear as possible - give her the same hair style, the same night shirt (smaller of course), same facial structure as much as the age difference permits, etc. The doll will be another clue to connect them, but do as much as you can with the actual resemblance. Here is the second place where you should have stopped.
    Okay. Not trusting the artist enough, sure. And I get why you say I should have stopped here, how the next paragraph doesn't belong within the panel.

    See the rest of this? Extraneous information that should not be in this panel description. The very first sentence? It’s not going to come off well at all, but that’s okay. More than likely, it won’t show up in the art.
    I'll go along with it not being in the panel description. But I still say most of it needs to be in some sort of scene or setting description. Otherwise I'm going to get a generic efficiency apartment, probably anachronistic, that says nothing (or the wrong things) about the characters.

    Yes, you’re more wordy than you need to be. By droves. Unless you pay well or the artist loves the story, you’re going to have a difficult time keeping an artist that’s not you. I’ve already shown you that you can get what you need in less than 100 words. I can do it again here. For this inset, I can probably do it in less than 25.
    Let's leave this for now, and pick up again after you've looked over the new script I sent, where I wasn't worldbuilding and I was putting in an effort to be more brief. You may be pleasantly surprised by the difference.

    Here is an establishing shot: Panel 1: Outside of a rundown tenement building. Pretty high up, so we can get a sense of the neighborhood around it, which is also run down and poor. I don’t care about the time of day.

    That’s an establishing shot. You should have an establishing shot every time you change scenes, or have some sort of voiceover on the last panel of the scene before you turn the page for the scene change.

    Go pick up a comic. Any comic with high production values. See how many scene changes there are without an establishing shot, or some sort of segue to advise that the scene is changing. What you’re doing here is turning the page, and immediately in another scene. No good.
    I have never heard a claim, before, that an establishing shot needs to be outdoors.The examples in the books I've seen usually are, but there didn't seem to be any indication that there was no such thing as an indoor establishing shot. Otherwise it seems like there would need to be two - one to establish the outside scene, and one to establish the inside scene. Dunno. I'll have to think on this one. (I had been thinking I should put in some captions at the scene changes though, especially since the second scene is kind of two scenes in one)

    Now, you’re trying to shortcut and put everything you can possibly think of up front, and thus, circumnavigate me throwing my hands up in despair by saying “I put it in there.” You’re trying to give yourself an excuse to have a big block of boring text. Yes, I’m calling you on it.
    No. What I'm trying to do is find the best way to present what I see as important information (which can absolutely be pared down, but not by quite as much as you think and still get me what I want).

    Believe me, the level of detail you’re putting in the script isn’t important, and most readers aren’t going to know the difference. This is a world of magic you’ve created. The only rules are the ones you set. So, really, no one knows, or can argue with you, about your world. If you want to have an electric generator in Cimmeria, you can do that.
    But what if I don't want an electric generator in Cimmeria, but the artist puts it in because I never told him what I actually wanted? That's the position you're trying to me put into. "You should ignore all the specifications on period touches and just let the artist draw a modern apartment, because the reader won't know the difference." Not cool.

    If you show someone in a bar, with a bunch of empty shot glasses in front of them, the readers will get the gist that he’s drunk. You don’t need more than one panel for that. Anything more is a waste. It’s not too much compression. It may be how you feel, and that’s fine. You’re just wrong.
    And no, I'm not saying that you can't set up the panel I described, but you don't need more than one to show him drunk. Get to the heart of the story as soon as you can. You can have him set up to be killed in single five-panel page. Learn what to compress and when.
    Sure I could do it one page. The question I have to answer, which I haven't yet, is whether I want to. At the moment, I'm not sure I do. But I'll think about it.

    I'd want you to post it here, no matter what. I don’t do I told you so’s. They serve no purpose. I’m either right or wrong. But more than likely, I’m right. And looking at the thumbnail you posted, it looks like I was right. That's not a half-dance. I don't know what that is, to be honest. It looks like she's walking, holding her skirt up out of the way, as women were wont to do once upon a time. If that's what you call a 'half dance', and was exactly what you were looking for, then I believe you need to go back to art school.
    I never went to art school. I'm self taught. But I don't see what that has to with that sketch being what I was looking for.

    So it doesn't look like a half-dance to you - okay, bad term maybe (makes me wonder what you think a half-dance would look like, but...). You say it looks like she's walking. Good. But that's a pretty high-stepping walk. Sure not a lady-like demure shuffle. And she looks playful doing it, I think, rather than just strolling sedately. Which is exactly what I wanted. It works for me. So, as far as I'm concerned, I was at least as right - it might have been a poor way to describe the pose, but it wasn't a moving panel.

    I’m saying that if you add a panel to the page where he’s put up against the wall, showing the skyline or something, with him yelling off panel, that will tell everyone that he’s been killed. That gets the killing out of the way, adds some mystery, and moves the story along. That would be satisfying to my storytelling sensibilities.
    Meh. Matter of preference I think. It would work okay that way - it's just a more G-rated approach. It doesn't add any mystery that I can see - you still know (or assume) he died. I suppose it does wrap the scene quicker.

    I understand the tone you’re going for. The only thing I can really say is that you’re failing miserably. Your first script had me wanting to punch the wizard in the face for being stupid, and this script just takes me right out of the story left and right. Put plainly, there’s no enjoyment here. No one’s laughing, nor even half-smiling. Being funny on paper is hard. Don’t worry, though. I’m not good at it, either. It’s something I have to work on.
    Fair enough. Guess I'll be working on it too.

    But what I really want to know... would "half-smiling" be a moving panel?

    I understand what you’re saying, but when drawn, it’s not going to come off well. Your real drama isn’t in the dream sequence, it’s in the middle panel. We’re just seeing why she’s having trouble sleeping. It’s backstory. You don’t want to overpower your central character on the page with large insets. Smaller insets will get the point across better.
    I get what you're saying, and I agree with the principle. But I don't think it will overpower anything. Even as I described it, the middle is still nearly the size of two of the inset panels, and it's dead center with everything sweeping around it. Figure in some muted colors or faded linework for the dream stuff, and, it seems to me, the central figure would be about as overpowered as a big red bullseye. It seems to me like a shot of a woman sleeping could be played up too much without a whole lot of trying. I guess the thumbnails will tell.

    As for the second thumbnail...it's a sketch, showing what you're going after, but not only is it flat, but the angle is also impossibly wrong. She should be squared off to him, making it all but impossible to see her face. He should also be moved to the right more, and the wall itself isn't where it's supposed to be. You have the wall coming in on the right, instead of going out, or at least being straight. You drew this, showing what you're going after, and I'm telling you that your art is off. This panel doesn't work.
    There is no reason in the world she has to be perfectly squared off to him. Actually, merely the act of reaching forward to push him, with one hand, would twist her torso to the side (If she were braced to push with effort, with one hand, she'd be more-or-less completely sideways to him, with her head turned to look along her shoulder at him). Her face could be turned square to him, with her torse off-square, of course, but a sidelong, playful glance works just as well - as long as her eyes are looking at him, it's all good.

    And even if she were perfectly squared off to him, you'd still see, at a minimum, one whole side of her face (which is more than enough to show glowing eyes). The only way it would be "all but impossible to see her face" is if you're still holding onto that mostly rear-view you got in your head at the start.

    If Dag were moved farther to the right, the girl's arm would be embedded in his chest unless her arm was bent to compensate - which would further enhance the effortless part, so it might not be a bad idea. I don't know where you get that his distance from her is somehow wrong, as is, though.

    I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about with the wall. It's at his back, where it's supposed to be, so I assume you're talking about the perspective - which is all wrong, I agree. If it were drawn in perspective it would recede into the distance, the lines getting closer as they moved to the center, but the vanishing point should be between them, not way off to one side.

    I'm sorry... I know it's not much of a sketch, but I still can't help thinking that you're justifying like a madman here.
    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Thursday, July 09, 2009 at 10:54 PM.



  7. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungbeetle View Post
    The first sketch works for me, the second one doesn't. YES is gets in everything described, but there's no sense of fear here. If we saw from behind her, we could make out the talons gripping his clothes, you could suggest the glowing through colour, and, in my mind, there's be a scarier effect, as we're only privy to what's happening via his reaction to it. It would also leave it open ended so god knows what's going on with her face at this time, but he's scared either way. I dunno, just a thought.
    This is good, Joe. I like this better than what I had in mind. There's absolutely no reason we need to see her expression, and not showing it would add some mystery.

    And, what cracks me up (probably because I have a black and evil heart)... is that this sets up the panel just the way Steven said it had to be, and still gets in everything I called for. And it does it even more dramatically than I had in mind. Good stuff.

    Thanks!



  8. Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,678
    Post Thanks / Like

    I just wanna know...
    ..how long does it take you guys...

    ...to write one of these posts...
    ...where you keep breaking up all the mini-quotes...

    ...and then responding underneath?
    That $#!% would make me

    Nucking Futs!
    "Living Robert Venditti's Plan B!"

    CAT. 5



  9. MartinBrandt Guest

    amen.



  10. StevenForbes Guest

    I have no need to justify.

    But what I want to know is, when I say something, I get an argument, but when someone else says the same thing, "Oh, you're right!"

    Here's something you're going to find the hard way, if you don't learn it now: comics work on a deadline. No matter what it is you're doing, either self-publishing or going through a company, you're going to be working on a deadline.

    If you're self-publishing, you're setting your own deadline, and shooting yourself in the foot if you miss it. The only one you're really hurting is you.

    If you're lucky enough to be published by a company, you're working on their deadline. What that means to you is that you don't have the time to argue and fight with the person editing you. Yes, you want to understand, and a good editor is also a teacher, but when you're working up against an in-store deadline, there's no time for the back and forth that we go through here.

    I don't mind it here in TPG, because that's what we're here for. Think of this as a safe place to learn. But if you pull this in the real world with an editor, you're not going to get far. It's basically their way or the highway, and if its the highway, work is going to come harder and harder for you. Just because I believe a good editor is also a teacher doesn't mean that there are a lot of good editors out there. Most working editors are overworked, and don't have time to hold your hand through the scripting process.

    Get your understanding done here, with me. Hammer out your problems, and learn to accept that a lot of times, "just because," and "because I said so" are acceptable answers in the real world if you want to get your story published. Even though you're writing the story for yourself and your audience, you're also writing to the specifications of your editor. Different editors have different sensibilities. You're not going to be able to play the "why" game for long.



Page 2 of 3
FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Archive Forums (For Archive Purposes only): General Comics Discussion, Original Works, It's Clobberin' Time, Respect Threads, P'wned, General Chat, Beat Down, The Champagne Room (Mature), Marvel News UP TO April 2011 (See the latest news here), DC News UP TO April 2011 (See the latest news here), DC News UP TO April 2011 (See the latest news here), Archie News UP TO April 2011 (See the latest news here), Comic Book Vitamins (See the latest columns here), Comics Are For People (See the latest columns here), Comics & Cinema (See the latest columns here), Comics Pro Prep (See the latest columns here), Bolts & Nuts (See the latest columns here), Seb-Standard (See the latest columns here), Webcomics You Should Be Reading (See the latest columns here), Development Hell (See the latest columns here), The Proving Grounds (See the latest columns here), Pixels Per Inch (See the latest columns here), Bargain Bin Gold (See the latest columns here), Dead Tuesday (See the latest columns here), Have You Considered... (See the latest columns here), Comic Book Vitamins (See the latest columns here)
Project Fanboy is now Fanboy Buzz.
Fanboy Buzz is home to Comic Book News, Comic Book Reviews, Comic Book Columns, Comic Book Forums and Comic Book Podcast
Check out some of our past podcast hosts doing podcasts at GonnaGeek.com. Sci-Fi, Tech, Gaming, Comics and More!