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Thread: TPG: Week 24- Calvin Camp

  1. StevenForbes Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianPiccione View Post
    ..how long does it take you guys...



    ...where you keep breaking up all the mini-quotes...



    That $#!% would make me



    Oh, I write mine in a different place, and then just copy and paste. The only time consuming thing then is the breaking of the quotes.



  2. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    But what I want to know is, when I say something, I get an argument, but when someone else says the same thing, "Oh, you're right!"
    That's a darn good question. And, despite the wink, I'm going to answer it seriously. You're probably just thinking that you said it harsh and Joe was nice about it, so it was easier to swallow, but that's not it at all. In reality, you didn't even remotely say the same thing.

    You said (essentially)... "That won't work. Her back has to be to us, because there's no other way to draw it, and you can't show anything that way."

    Joe said (essentially)... "That may cover everything you called for, but it's a boring view. If you show her with her back to us, though, you can still show everything you wanted, by doing it this way, and it might work better."

    Those are two completely different messages, with absolutely nothing in common except the position of the figure. And I'm kind of surprised you couldn't see that on your own.




    As for the rest... I am absolutely using (or perhaps abusing ) you as a teacher, and not treating you like an editor I'm working for. Rest assured, if I were working for you or another editor, the responses would be, "Yes, Sir. If that's the way you want it, that's the way it'll be".

    However... I don't expect to ever be in that situation, myself. I'm not interested in telling stories about other people's characters, not for the big two or anybody else. And if I submit my own stories to a publisher (rather than self-publishing, which is more likely) it will almost certainly be as a complete package. So the only way I can see that I'll be working with an editor (outside of here at least) is if I hire him to assist me.

    In which case, when I'm writing the check, he'll want to be prepared to tell me why something should be the way he says it should be, if he wants me to go along with it. If he can't tell me why, then, as far as I'm concerned, he's of very limited use to me. As far as deadlines go, if the editor is working for me and I disagree with him, then I won't bother arguing about it - I'll just excercise my right as the guy in charge of the story and do it my way (which I could probably do here, too, but I wouldn't learn as much as I do arguing with you ).
    Last edited by CalvinCamp; Thursday, July 09, 2009 at 11:13 PM.



  3. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    Oh, I write mine in a different place, and then just copy and paste. The only time consuming thing then is the breaking of the quotes.
    I do the same thing, unless it's a short response.

    The reason is that, without doing it that way, I'd have a harder time keeping track of what part I was responding to, and I'd ramble all over the place (a tendency which might be evident in my panel descriptions)



  4. StevenForbes Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    That's a darn good question. And, despite the wink, I'm going to answer it seriously. You're probably just thinking that you said it harsh and Joe was nice about it, so it was easier to swallow, but that's not it at all. In reality, you didn't even remotely say the same thing.

    You said (essentially)... "That won't work. Her back has to be to us, because there's no other way to draw it, and you can't show anything that way."

    Joe said (essentially)... "That may cover everything you called for, but it's a boring view. If you show her with her back to us, though, you can still show everything you wanted, by doing it this way, and it might work better."

    Those are two completely different messages, with absolutely nothing in common except the position of the figure. And I'm kind of surprised you couldn't see that on your own.
    I saw it. I was just giving you a hard time about it.

    What I do here is a little different than my editing of scripts, but not by much. Here, I point out what's wrong and why, and rarely give an alternate way to do it. My goal here is to help you to think for yourself.

    When I'm being paid to edit, I say what's wrong, why, and offer suggestions on how to change it.

    It's a fine line to walk. And yes, it sucks. (That's a technical term, by the way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by madelf View Post
    As for the rest... I am absolutely using (or perhaps abusing ) you as a teacher, and not treating you like an editor I'm working for. Rest assured, if I were working for you or another editor, the responses would be, "Yes, Sir. If that's the way you want it, that's the way it'll be".

    However... I don't expect to ever be in that situation, myself. I'm not interested in telling stories about other people's characters, not for the big two or anybody else. And if I submit my own stories to a publisher (rather than self-publishing, which is more likely) it will almost certainly be as a complete package. So the only way I can see that I'll be working with an editor (outside of here at least) is if I hire him to assist me.

    In which case, when I'm writing the check, he'll want to be prepared to tell me why something should be the way he says it should be, if he wants me to go along with it. If he can't tell me why, then, as far as I'm concerned, he's of very limited use to me. As far as deadlines go, if the editor is working for me and I disagree with him, then I won't bother arguing about it - I'll just excercise my right as the guy in charge of the story and do it my way (which I could probably do here, too, but I wouldn't learn as much as I do arguing with you ).
    Here's the thing: If you're hiring someone to edit for you, using your own timetable, you hired them for their expertise as well as keeping you on track. I wrote about this in B&N. If you're hiring an editor, your ego should be taking a back seat to the story. That's a hard thing for a LOT of us to get over. We think of ourselves as the story, because we're the ones writing it, and how dare someone come in from the outside and say it's "wrong." I'm not paying you to tell me I'm wrong! I'm paying you to spellcheck for me!

    No.

    I wholeheartedly believe that you should get an editor in on the project as soon as possible. I'm talking about having an idea that you're excited about, and have gone through the trouble of writing the pitch for. Something you've outlined and populated, but haven't written the script for as yet. Get an editor in then, and I feel you'll have a much better product. If you've already had something written and drawn, there isn't much that an editor can do at that point besides spellcheck, and most people can do that for you.

    For ICE: Interrogation Control Element (which is in Zuda competition now), Tyler asked me to take a look at what he had. I did, telling him I'd be of limited use because he already had the story drawn. I then pointed out a couple of things to him, and suggested how the story could be better served. He had two pages changed out and cut down on some dialogue, and it's a more compelling story for it.

    What happened was he didn't let his ego get in the way of the story. That's huge. For his webcomic Over, I read the original draft of what he wanted to do, and it wasn't working at all. He put it aside for a while, assimilating my notes and thoughts of others, and now has something on his hands that is much tighter in narrative and pacing, with characters that act a lot more naturally. Again, that's huge.

    If you hire someone to edit you, do it as soon as possible, and for the right reasons. They should be there to help make the story better. They should be there to help make you look good. If they do anything else, then they're really not of any help.

    But you have to help them to help you.



  5. CalvinCamp Guest

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenForbes View Post
    I saw it. I was just giving you a hard time about it.
    Ah... I misread your meaning then. Sorry about that.

    But, by all means, give me a hard time all you want. Turn about is fair play.

    What I do here is a little different than my editing of scripts, but not by much. Here, I point out what's wrong and why, and rarely give an alternate way to do it. My goal here is to help you to think for yourself.

    When I'm being paid to edit, I say what's wrong, why, and offer suggestions on how to change it.

    It's a fine line to walk. And yes, it sucks. (That's a technical term, by the way.)
    And that's probably the right approach for here. You got me thinking about it, you got Joe thinking about it, you might have gotten people who didn't post thinking about it. I decided I was darn well going to do what you said I couldn't, sort of did, and then Joe comes up with a way to do it better. It worked. Group effort.

    I think the difference might be bigger than you realize though, at least from sitting on this side (and likely should be, since it's the difference between paid and free). The Proving Grounds sometimes seems a little thin on the "why" (or maybe I'm just dense, because that's why I'm always fighting - to try and get at a "why" that makes sense to me). And it probably frustrates me that there's no "how" (or not much, you have given me a little now and then). So I think really getting some good solid "why" and "how to change it", would make a huge difference.

    Here's the thing: If you're hiring someone to edit for you, using your own timetable, you hired them for their expertise as well as keeping you on track. I wrote about this in B&N. If you're hiring an editor, your ego should be taking a back seat to the story. That's a hard thing for a LOT of us to get over. We think of ourselves as the story, because we're the ones writing it, and how dare someone come in from the outside and say it's "wrong." I'm not paying you to tell me I'm wrong! I'm paying you to spellcheck for me!

    No.
    Not just no, but hell no. I wouldn't hire an editor to spellcheck for me. I can get a proof-reader cheaper. Even taking advantage of your free service here, I'm doing it for your expertise. You might have noticed that, for all my arguing, there are some things I take at face value. And I carefully consider even those I don't. I value all of it, or I wouldn't waste my time or yours. And the arguing brings out more value.

    "You don't want to do this, it's campy."
    "No. I want camp."
    "You may want camp, and that's fine, but this is crappy camp."
    "Oh, okay. I guess I'll have to work on that then"

    See how that works? Just going, "Uhm, okay... I guess camp is bad, if you say so," doesn't get me to the same place.

    Another example is your distaste for the murder scene. I still don't agree that not showing it is inherently better, or adds mystery, but the discussion reminded me that it does broaden the potential audience compared to a more mature-oriented approach, and also condenses the panel count. So I might very well go that way, even though it's not what my gut told me to do. Story before ego, right?

    I don't believe I'm arguing out of ego. I'm all for making the story better. If someone can convince me there's a better way to do what I'm trying to do, I'm on board with that. But I still want to tell the story that the story is, not some other story... if that makes sense. (And a large part of that story requires the setting to be presented properly in the artwork, which is why I start kicking when you want to rip all the setting details out wholesale)

    I wholeheartedly believe that you should get an editor in on the project as soon as possible. I'm talking about having an idea that you're excited about, and have gone through the trouble of writing the pitch for. Something you've outlined and populated, but haven't written the script for as yet. Get an editor in then, and I feel you'll have a much better product. If you've already had something written and drawn, there isn't much that an editor can do at that point besides spellcheck, and most people can do that for you.
    Hmmm... I wouldn't have considered waiting until after the book was drawn to bring in an editor, but I wouldn't have thought of bringing one in pre-script either. Worth some consideration, certainly.

    But you have to help them to help you.
    I know it probably doesn't seem like it most of the time... but (in an odd sort of way) I kind of have been.

    I do understand your meaning though. An editor with a thinner skin would probably have blocked my emails by now. I'm just lucky you're tougher than that.

    But hey, I could probably try and be a little more tactful when I work at prying the "whys" out of you, if you want. I don't know if it'll work, me being who I am, but I could give it a shot. But if I stopped trying to pry the "why's" out... that would really devalue my being here. I'd rather not do that.



  6. MartinBrandt Guest

    I think Forbes has the right approach here. He is giving you value. Not his full value as it is time consuming, but a thought provoking value. His job here is to make you question. It is not to just say, "Oh damn, I guess I suck."

    As he pointed out he is giving you a clue(though some clues are like anvils to the head of a coyote), it is up to you to follow through and improve like others have done in the past. To ask anymore of him for a free column is honestly a little to much. Of course that is my opinion, but time is valuable to people of skill. That is our bread and butter.

    I am not (I almost wrote ain't LOL) saying you don't get that. I am just repeating what he said, slightly different.

    I have to say the more of his stuff I read the more I realize the quality of a good editor. In the past I have self edited or had friends do it. Problem here is unless there is sufficient time between when you wrote it and when you edit, the item is still fresh in mind. Meaning you are going to miss a lot because when you read you still know what you were writing and can gloss mistakes easily as your mind fills in the correction before you realize.

    The problem with friends is most are too nice. They don't give you the real beef OR it ain't really a paying gig so they don't do the 110% you need.

    There is my 25 cent for the morning.



  7. CalvinCamp Guest

    Martin,

    Steven is giving me value here, definitely. I'm pretty sure I said as much. And it's value that I appreciate a great deal more than it may sometimes sound (and I think Steven knows that - from our discussions here and elsewhere, he seems to have me pretty well figured out). But I don't expect him to give more than he's willing to. I sure don't expect him to upgrade the feedback he's giving here to the level he gets paid to provide.

    If something doesn't make sense to me, I'll say so, and explain why. If I need more info to process what he's already said, I'll ask for it. If that gets me more feedback that helps me sort it out, great. If not, oh well. I have a solid expectation that Steven isn't going to give me any more of his time than he is comfortable with. He's smart enough to cut me off when he decides it's time. He's done it before.



  8. MartinBrandt Guest

    Calvin,

    Well, as long as we all understand each other.



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